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#45450
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the_bob 2009-06-18T15:52:28
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to paradox in message #3178:
Yea. I just put that in there for flavour ala Denis leary. BSD is one of the few 'Nixes I haven't played with. I have done aix, solaris, and linux. Been happy with each, but never touched BSD. Would like to one day but...


Bob,
--
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
3181 [save my place] [reply]
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outzider 2009-06-18T16:42:19
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to the_bob in message #3181:
Think of BSD as a friendlier Solaris, and you pretty much have it.

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3182 [save my place] [reply]
#2731
2488 posts
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paradox 2009-06-18T17:28:41
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3182:
... I would have never made that comparison... but actually, yes, that is a pretty close analogy.



"You must be the change you want to see in this world." - Mahatma Gandhi
3183 [save my place] [reply]
#21137
6523 posts
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-18T19:47:14
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3182:
I don't disagree as it's a useful analogy. However, I would also point out that solaris is like a classic steam locomotive. It's complicated as fuck to run it, but once you've got it going you can shoot at it with shotguns and it won't notice.

Being friendlier than solaris takes very very little. A package manager added in would count.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3184 [save my place] [reply]
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outzider 2009-06-19T13:35:29
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to jadefalcon1 in message #3184:
You really should try OpenSolaris.

This whole site is running on it now, from web to mail.

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3185 [save my place] [reply]
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-19T13:46:12
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3185:
I've got quite a few friends who've played with it.
"Unmitigated disaster" was the consensus.


Solaris can suck a dick. I'll use it because that's what the places I'll work in use, but I'll not inflict it on myself in my free time.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3186 [save my place] [reply]
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paradox 2009-06-19T15:19:43
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3185:
I know a few of my colleagues who run a Solaris shop, and based on their description of the hassles I don't see that outweighing the potential benefits.

However, they are overworked, understaffed and not entirely trained well, so my personal verdict on Solaris is still pending.



"Some of us lie to ourselves to stop the nagging of unanswered questions,
some of us operate just fine with unanswered questions
but we are nagged very much by lies and incorrectly answered questions."

- guymella
3187 [save my place] [reply]
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outzider 2009-06-19T22:47:52
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to jadefalcon1 in message #3186:
To be fair, if you find Linux to be a reliable operating system, it's not like your bar is set that high. If they popped in a live CD and called it a disaster, it's probably due to them just not wanting to deal with it.

Linux can suck a dick. What a useless, pointless waste of an operating system.

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3188 [save my place] [reply]
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-20T02:43:27
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3188:
The most disastrous was a proper install. The man who installed it is our in-house Solaris guru (he knows things about Solaris that Sun seems to have forgotten), one of my sysadmin co-workers, and a guy who's forgotten more about computers than I'll ever know.

He fucked with it for about 10 days, then blew away the partition in disgust.

Now, I will be fair on this: The OpenSolaris he used was about 4 weeks after it was first released. I imagine things have improved a great deal since then. I also will say that Solaris 10 is vastly less heinous than 9 was. I live in fear of touching the Solaris 9 E450 we've got in the dinosaur pen. That is a scary box.

As for Linux: I disagree. Strongly. Vehemently.
I make no bones about Linux vs. Windows on the unsophisticated user's desktop. Linux, in its many incarnations, requires the user to be involved and educated about what's going on. Windows doesn't. Therein lies the real difference. Windows makes a ton of decisions for the users that are appropriate for most users. Linux tends to do a lot less of that, requiring a great deal more user interaction and input and thus a great deal more knowledge.

We run Ubuntu 8.04 Server on the fileservers at work and it's a gigantic improvement over the mess that was the Red Hat installs we had previously. I would NEVER run Solaris on those servers due to the epic administrative overhead, lesser hardware support, and the very badly broken LDAP/Kerberos interfacing. The Linux boxes in our department have availability and reliability numbers just as good as our Solaris machines. Reboots are more common for kernel updates, but downtimes are shorter at a stretch. In all, we've found that to be a more worthwhile situation. The last time we tried to apply any updates to one of our Solaris servers, it ended up with me and aforementioned Solaris guru spending 40 hours straight in the server room resurrecting the machine from a silently corrupted root filesystem. Fuck that noise ever again.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3189 [save my place] [reply]
#2731
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paradox 2009-06-20T08:10:08
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3188:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by, "Linux can suck a dick. What a useless, pointless waste of an operating system."

Linux has it's place. Our support staff use Ubuntu from bootable CD's to do diagnostics and HD recovery. We host a few of our production systems on Redhat Advanced Server, and while I wouldn't say it's god's gift to web servers, it does it's job. It hasn't crashed in over 2 years. And the only reason I have had to bounce any of the services has been for regular patch installations or because Java in general does a dick job of releasing memory.

I'm not saying your particular experience isn't undeserved, I guess I would be curious what flavor of Linux and in what setting you gained such a dislike for Linux.



I am Spartacus!
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outzider 2009-06-20T09:01:25
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to jadefalcon1 in message #3189:
You can disagree all you want. Linux cannot handle load, Linux sucks at IO, Linux filesystems are terrible. Compared to Windows, sure, it's huge reliability improvement. Just because something is better doesn't make it good.

I think you blame Solaris for anything that goes wrong, but considering you mentioned 'Solaris guru' who thinks OpenSolaris blows and lets you blame Solaris for 40 hours of jerking off, I'm not sure he's so much a 'guru'. There are times with any operating system where something goes awry and you end up in a data center for 40 hours. God knows I've done it enough with a data center of 400 Linux machines. Fuck that noise.

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3191 [save my place] [reply]
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outzider 2009-06-20T09:09:29
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to paradox in message #3190:
My comment wasn't complete seriousness, it was really a response to the ignorant, misguided last line of jadefalcon's post. It's easy to rip on something you have no experience in, don't understand, won't try to understand, and so on. The problem is that I've worked with plenty of people who believe:

a) Linux is the best operating system in the world
b) PHP is the best programming language in the world
c) MySQL is the best database in the world

The problem is that for most of the people I've worked with who say these three things say them because they never used anything else. That's fine. I'm happy with a lot of stuff where I've never used a competitor before. But to actively rip on other shit because they've never used it or they heard that something sucked is misguided, and I tend to trust their work less because they really don't know what they're talking about. I know Linux is fine, I know that for most instances, it will get the job done with a great amount of ease. To then have someone tell me that FreeBSD or Solaris are useless because administration is a bitch usually tells me that they either have never actually administered any of those machines, or they were put into an environment with existing machines, assumed they would do the exact same things as [insert other OS of choice], and call it crap because it's missing apt-get or lsadm.

It has nothing to do with flavors of Linux that I've used. I've been a Linux user since 1999, and have had experience in managing desktops and servers running Red Hat, CentOS, Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, and Slackware. My beef with Linux lies in the kernel and drivers, as well as spending many a night dealing with crap hardware RAID drivers and failed mdadm RAID instances. I've had to deal with a piece of software that can peg a CPU completely preventing reliable SSH connections or near-realtime network I/O. I'm sick of the assumption that if Linux somehow isn't the best OS out there, somehow, the flavor is wrong or the installation wasn't perfect. It's fundamentally flawed when it comes to releasing pieces under load. A standard web server or database server may never hit this issue. A high load server just might.

I'm really speaking out against ignorance more than my hatred of Linux. Linux just bears the brunt of it because some script kiddie comes up and goes OMG L1NUX R0X0RZ MY NU7Z0RZ U ALL SUX ^_^ and I just want to punch them.

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3192 [save my place] [reply]
#21137
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-20T14:42:30
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3192:
I seem to have failed to properly articulate my point.

What happened wasn't expressly the fault of Solaris. The fact that it took 40 hours to fix was. The guru in question, a man named Ed, has worked with Solaris longer than I've owned a computer. He is, most undoubtedly, a guru.
Part of the reason we had such a bitch of a time getting a new install working revolved around using metadevices for the root filesystem. The Sparc firmware insisted on resurrecting the root metadevice on every new install attempt, resulting in failures due to said device being corrupted.

In Linux-land, that wouldn't happen. In Windows...well, you wouldn't be doing that to begin with.

Look, I think you are correct about the high-performance limitations of Linux. However, I'm not arguing that Linux should be used for super-servers. It works fine for a whole lotta applications, and the high-performance servers represent a small portion of the total server installs in the world.
Solaris is more stable, and in many ways more robust. You pay for that in more difficult administration. Features are undocumented or incorrectly documented (run into that quite a few times). I can see that in Linux, simply because of its hobbyist nature. From Sun? That's unacceptable. It's their corporate product, so the rules are different.


I think what this all comes down to is that ease of use/administration is typically inversely proportional to the capabilities and robustness of a given system. That tends to be true of most things, not just operating systems.

At the end of the day, I use Linux for my personal projects and our work projects because it's a good tradeoff. If we had the resources, the time, and the money to run Solaris properly I'd be less resistant to it. Right now, though, there's no way to justify the difficulty and overhead of running Solaris systems.

I'm rambling.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3193 [save my place] [reply]
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outzider 2009-06-22T08:41:59
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to jadefalcon1 in message #3193:
To be fair:

"In Linux-land, that wouldn't happen. In Windows...well, you wouldn't be doing that to begin with. "

In Linux-land, it likely would still be happening, because you'd still be running it on the SPARC hardware. ;)

//////// oZ //////// [blog] [lj] [things i hate about you]
"When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil." - James Carville
3194 [save my place] [reply]
#2731
2488 posts
15 points
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paradox 2009-06-22T11:17:49
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3192:
I agree with the sentiment. An OS is only as good as it is suited to the tasks required of it, and the resources available to properly administer it.

I will hold the script kiddie's arms while you get in a few good kidney shots?




"One, two, five!"
"Three, sir."
"Three!"
3195 [save my place] [reply]
#21137
6523 posts
21 points
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-22T21:35:29
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to outzider in message #3194:
Oh hell no. I've tried to run Gentoo on a sparc. Gave up rather quickly when it proved to be a pain in the ass just to boot from a CD. Fuck that noise.

Sparc is a really cool architecture. It's awesome for teaching low-level assembly programming and understanding how machines do what they do. As a production system, however, it's a gigantic pain if you don't already know what you're doing. Ick. No thanks.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3196 [save my place] [reply]
#45450
3062 posts
14 points
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the_bob 2009-06-23T00:03:13
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to jadefalcon1 in message #3196:
my entire university education in programming was on sparcs, running solaris.

hhhmmm...

Bob
--
Practitioner of Percussive Technical Support.
3197 [save my place] [reply]
#21137
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21 points
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jadefalcon1 2009-06-23T00:33:42
subject: re: Hate to be a bother....
in reply to the_bob in message #3197:
Lucky you. That means your U also had the resources to fund the expertise necessary to support that kind of system.

Our department is run by a bunch of backbiting fuckers that are far more concerned with their little fiefdoms rather than student welfare. The department's finances are a disaster. Our sysadmin team (of which I am a member)? One part-time staffer and 3-4 part-time student assistants. That's IT. We've worked soooo many unpaid hours, it's fucking disgusting. We do it because we'd rather put in the time than see the students get fucked.

I'm excited to get outta here.

~Jade Falcon
[mail][blog][page]
"I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either!" ~ IdleBystander.
3198 [save my place] [reply]

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