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#56288
2281 posts
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morbidskittle187 2009-12-08T22:54:44
subject: re: Riddle me this,
in reply to metalyxmii in message #3086:
1) You remind me a lot of my ex.

2) *shudder*

3) I find it hilarious that you seem to be incapable of connecting the dots of your post to my response back to your response of my response to your post. So let me try to do this for you...

You:"That's why feminist enthusiasts tend to get low paying jobs giving massages instead of high paying science based jobs. Inequality exists, even in the best possible examples of otherwise."

Me:"Inequality exists because people like you think women can't possibly be better at something than a man. Especially not physically demanding scenarios."

You:"Are you serious? (sigh) Do you know why inequality exists? Because the world isn't the wonderful disney place mom or school tells you it is. Inequality exists, because, try as hard as you ever possible could, you will not be my equal. Really. Let's take a beat to digest this. "

OK, so... Of course everyone is a unique snowflake, but that doesn't justify a difference in pay rate due to gender/race, nor does it justify exclusion. Agreed? I'm just gonna go ahead and envision you nodding right now. That's the only point that I meant to make with this statement.

And as for the article, the point is not that men get a jump start, the point is, when ANY GENDER trains for ANYTHING they build muscle equally, the fact that your big ass quarterback needs more muscle to push his big ass across the field does not mean he's stronger or faster, it just means it takes more to get his big ass going, and therefor a woman even with equal muscle mass per pound would get a head start. Imagine if you will for a moment an oldschool train and a bus. You're the train and I'm the bus, got it? I will give you one point though, a bigger man being harder to stop than a smaller women. I mean an object in motions stays in motion unless a force of equal or greater force opposes it. But you also have to account for catch-ability (yes, I just made up a word.)

But yes, I am right. So I be mo' bett'a than yo jive turkey self!

And furthermore, Susan, my bits aren't angry or bitter.



-Skittle-
I am accustomed to sleep, and in my dreams to imagine the same things that lunatics imagine when awake. -Rene Descartes
3091 [save my place] [reply]
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metalyxmii 2009-12-09T00:47:10
subject: re: Riddle me this,
in reply to morbidskittle187 in message #3091:
Possible I suppose, I'm a bunch ex's. Hmm, correlation?

I'm connecting the dots just fine doll, we just have different conclusions. Of course gender/race/ differences justify difference. Frankly, not only are we different than that person/group, but we're better. Easy peasy. Sure maybe it's immoral or even unethical, but never wrong. Reference religion for the non-existence of right and wrong. Justifying exclusion... Well shoot, perhaps the system isn't perfect, but it never will be. Ooh, getting off topic.

So, to be sure I have this straight. A 95lbs man and a 95lbs woman should in theory run as fast as each other, and be a strong as each other? Conversely, a 250lbs man and a 250lbs woman will be (in theory) just as strong and fast as each other? Your article seems interesting, but doesn't take into account hormonal differences, ligament and bone differences, baseline evolutionary differences. I'm curious to see who are the fastest/strongest record holders. And the differences between the gender counterparts. You'll find it's not a direct ratio. Or if you prefer, I'll find the ratio. Doesn't really matter to me.

Again, why "stronger"? This is not a standard measurement. Force is a standard measurement.

Don't lie to yourself, I've not yet met a woman who's (dirty bits) didn't get irritated in conversation with me. Look at Bob and Kai. Real itchy vaginae.

All universal moral principles are idle fancies.
-Marquis De Sade
3092 [save my place] [reply]
#14182
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what 2009-12-09T20:56:28
subject: re: Riddle me this,
in reply to metalyxmii in message #3092:
I wasn't holding on to you in the first place. That's definitely your expertise.

Lay down in the aisle and flail
3093 [save my place] [reply]
#126595
403 posts
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metalyxmii 2009-12-10T00:57:32
subject: re: Riddle me this,
in reply to what in message #3093:
What?

All universal moral principles are idle fancies.
-Marquis De Sade
3094 [save my place] [reply]
#14182
1663 posts
12 points
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what 2009-12-30T13:27:50
subject: re: Riddle me this,
in reply to metalyxmii in message #3094:
:D

Lay down in the aisle and flail
3095 [save my place] [reply]
#45450
3062 posts
14 points
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the_bob 2010-07-23T09:26:02
subject: Question on the state of the war...
Is the battle of the genders, over gender equalization, over? Has a side raised the white flag? Has a piece accord been signed? Are we in the midst of a cold war?

When do you think we will see strong feminine leadership in politics and in society in general? The women in here are savvy, but more in the general population.


Bob,
--
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
3096 [save my place] [reply]
#56288
2281 posts
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morbidskittle187 2010-07-23T10:54:40
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3096:
Women are constantly being underestimated and undermined and therefore they underestimate themselves and there fellow females. It seems to me to be an endless cycle. And all we can do is choose not to follow the pattern ourselves.



--------------
I know a lot about cars, man. I can look at any car's headlights and tell you exactly which way it's coming. - Mitch Hedberg
3097 [save my place] [reply]
#45450
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the_bob 2010-07-23T11:03:14
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to morbidskittle187 in message #3097:
Why do you think that is?

Bob,
--
Take life as it comes, straight no chaser.
3098 [save my place] [reply]
#56288
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morbidskittle187 2010-07-23T20:44:44
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3098:
I don't think there is any simple answer to this. But I think a lot of it is based on nurture vs nature. Despite our intellectual advances in the last eon or so we are all still animals and many of our drives are based on an instinct to survive. Men are programmed to be protectors, and as dysfunctional as they may come out most of the time, I think it explains a lot of their actions. However it doesn't justify them. So if a man has a position of power (rather he abuses it or not) if something goes wrong within his realm of responsibility he will likely take the brunt of the blame should something go wrong. Does this make sense to you? Or am I just talking out of my ass. lol



--------------
I know a lot about cars, man. I can look at any car's headlights and tell you exactly which way it's coming. - Mitch Hedberg
3099 [save my place] [reply]
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the_bob 2010-07-23T23:43:22
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to morbidskittle187 in message #3099:
I think it is a little more simple than that, but you've almost hit the nail on the head.

My take, as a male, is that women don't want more. They want to have the ability to do anything and everything a man does. The minority that wants that will do it it. They will become the doctors, phd and medical, scientists, religious leaders, activists, and politicians. The rest of the woman want to have the right to have it all, but also the right to do what they want. Being the primary care giver in the household. The man supports and brings home the food, the woman raises the children and supports the household.

Personality and ability is very much unique to the person. Some people have the drive to be Vets and others mothers. There is nothing wrong with it. It is a matter of choice.

I believe that a lot of people, men and women alike, expected the fallout of the feminist revolution to show an equal distribution of women in all sectors of life. Consequently they expected more men to accept the role of house husband. The result is a world where women have returned to their gender role voluntarily. They're not expect or forced to be mothers and housewives but choose to be. They aren't expected to be nuclear scientists, but choose to be.

What do I think? The truce is holding and the peace accords are being signed. The result. Everyone has the right to choose their destiny. They aren't regulated to one role or another. The end result isn't different that what was started with. Except that they're equal in the roles that they want.

I am sure that we will see our strong female leaders and role models but they won't be the likes of Sarah Palin or Lindsy Lohan.



Bob
--
Saying that Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders
3100 [save my place] [reply]
#14182
1663 posts
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what 2010-07-24T02:26:21
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3100:
The past 5 replies have been blissfully ignorant, optimistic estimates of *present* American opportunities.

the_bob, saying women don't want more is simplistic bullshit.

None of it takes into account the history of gender discrimination, nor other cultures and places where it still exists.
I.e. some places in India and China have a shortage of females in the population because parents killed off all their newborn daughters believing they are expensive - a bride's family traditionally has to pay a dowry to the groom's and girls aren't considered 'useful' for work that earns money. Any girls that make it alive can be sold into the sex industry at a young age, OR, if they survive to an older age in poorer countries sex work is either forced or an eventual choice to fill the previous gender/economy/education imbalance. I won't bother to explain the concept of 'Russian mail-order bride' to you.

More women vote in US districts with female representatives, than in districts with none [forgive me, I can't find the source of this stat]

The influences guiding women's decisions are often forces much bigger than the individual herself. Girls do better in single-sex schools even in 'liberated western' countries. Men are still physically stronger. Female cops will eventually have knee problems due to femurs angled from wider hips; this is not to say women should not be cops or politicians, but you cannot say it is easy.

It's great that some women have the opportunity to choose a career and/or motherhood. It's great there are some househusbands out there. But you have focused on women. There is no culture or tradition of househusbandry. How many times have you heard people say, 'Oh wow, this tastes just how my mom cooked it!!'? How long will it take for that role to become an easy or common choice for men? Do you even know if your state entitles newborn fathers to paternity leave from work without getting fired?

I will leave you with 2 sad points
This disturbing story of Australian culture [despite getting our first female Prime Minister this year, btw]
and
This South African video experiment.

Don't even get started on abortion. Chew on that, 'women don't want more'.

- china/india infanticide http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
- burma/chinese border sex workers http://www.irrawaddy.org/highlight.php?art_id=18124
- how women suffer in winner-take-all elections http://archive.fairvote.org/?page=412
[NB: incumbents get free postage-paid for mail-out campaign material as they're still in office - its a pretty rigged system for any incumbent, let alone female]

I had margaritas for beer.
3101 [save my place] [reply]
#45450
3062 posts
14 points
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the_bob 2010-07-24T09:18:23
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to what in message #3101:
Why do people always assume that the person talking back to them from the other side of the screen is from the USA?

Oh course it doesn't take into account the HISTORY of gender discrimination. I wasn't looking at the history. I want to know what the thoughts and opinions about the CURRENT state of gender discrimination. The African, Middle Eastern, and Asiatic states are the current fronts of the war. I could cite current statistic and observations of genital mutilation, arranged marriage, lack of education, and rote servitude in those countries.

The thing is, they're changing. It doesn't happen in one part of the world and spread immediately. Iran, not so much. Turkey, a lot more progressive. Hong Kong vs butt-fuck nowheres in the Chinese interior. My question doesn't really touch on that and I don't really want it to.

The 'Western world', including but not limited to: Canada, USA, Europe, Russia, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand, is further along in the battle. We have seen it swing from a Patriarchal society to a almost Femanazi state and back. As for your link, I googled several phrasings of your claim and found nothing. That isn't to say it is incorrect, and I don't believe it to be so. A higher percentage of females vote compared to males.

Alright, as for the rest of I will pay it the lip service it requires. I have often commented on how this tastes just like my mom makes it. My friends children will comment opposite. My children, when they come, will comment both but that is because my GF is a big 'foodie'. Yes it is harder for women to enter physically straining careers. The choice of who does housework and who is responsible for the care and upkeep of the house has evened out. Both people are working so both are responsible for it when they get home. I will cook, and she will clean. She will launder the sheets and I will clean the bathroom. I will mow the lawn and she will vacuum. How is that not equal when both have a career.

I know that in CANADA we are entitled to 50 weeks of leave between the two of us. So she can take six months and I can take six months. The way it works is that we take the 'leave' from work and claim EI. Than come back. Was I, this oh so ignorant male, not supposed to know that?

My observations from University on is that there is a disparity in the expected gender bias in many of the courses. For example there were more women than men in the biological sciences, social sciences, humanities, and education, while there were more men in the hard sciences and engineering, and the gender distribution was equal in business and the fine arts. This was beyond the first and second years; so it wasn't taking into account the people who dropped out and were only looking for a husband/wife. Are we saying that women aren't able to handle the hard sciences and the like? Are we preventing them from getting into those fields of study? What is the state?

As I have gotten out and worked in technology companies I find a stark division in the gender of various departments. Men are always in the technical areas and women are in the HR/reception areas. Why do you think this is? Gender ability or gender oppression?

So as for my simplistic bullshit, I was defining the area of discussion, not glossing over the areas where it still exists. Of course I am focusing on women, as you point out they are the target for gender discrimination. Are they equal now?

So let me define the question a bit more for you: In the western world, how do you think the female equality is going? Is the battle over? Are women given all the opportunities or are they selectively discriminated against? Is the war still going on? Is it a cold war? Truce? What? If it is over how do you resolved the gender bias in typically male dominated careers?

BTW, my signature is on random, I didn't choose that one.

Bob,
--
It isn't that you're stupid; it is just that you're ignorant.
3102 [save my place] [reply]
#56288
2281 posts
15 points
[profile]
morbidskittle187 2010-07-24T09:55:59
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3102:
I know first hand that gender discrimination is still happening. I was working in a shop on cars and males who had been there less time than I was were afforded more learning/ work opportunities than I was. They assumed I was weaker so when they needed assistance they asked males who weren't much bigger than I was to assist them. The funny thing was is they didn't even realize they were doing it. When you're in a predominantly male work place I've found there are typically 4 types of men; the guys who think it's "cute" but don't believe you can do it, the smaller group of people who think it's awesome and applaud you for it, the mass majority who simply wonder "why?" "why would you choose this?" "why are you here" and "are you a lesbian?", then there are always the ones who don't seem to care either way. So yes it happens. But instead of being pissed off because it happens and it happened to me, past tense because eventually I did get fired, I choose to examine the why and most of the time that leads me to a place where I actually feel bad for them.



--------------
I know a lot about cars, man. I can look at any car's headlights and tell you exactly which way it's coming. - Mitch Hedberg
3103 [save my place] [reply]
#56288
2281 posts
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morbidskittle187 2010-07-24T10:02:23
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to morbidskittle187 in message #3103:
Also I think it should be noted I had a stay at home Dad.



--------------
I know a lot about cars, man. I can look at any car's headlights and tell you exactly which way it's coming. - Mitch Hedberg
3104 [save my place] [reply]
#14182
1663 posts
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what 2010-07-27T17:10:52
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3102:
1. I don't care if you're from Canaduh. I'm Australian. No big shit. However your posts referred to 'society in general'. Unfortunately that addresses the average state of affairs for allllllllll the men and women in the whole world. You did not define this 'society in general' geography at all. Sorry to jump down your throat, but if you cleared up this ambiguity at the beginning, my post would never have been written.

2. The 'CURRENT' present is determined by the past. I don't believe domestic duties have evened out at all, while women are afforded the choice of career or home, if they choose career they find they end up shouldering BOTH anyway.

"Working mothers still do twice as much housework as their husbands, and more than half of all women questioned expressed at least some dissatisfaction with the amount of help their husbands provide around the house."

"While the average unemployed dad with kids under the age of 15 spends almost double the amount of time on domestic chores than the average male, he still spends only three-quarters the time spent by an unemployed mother. Similarly, mums who work full-time spend almost double the time on household duties than dads working full-time."

I applaud your motivation with your partner. No sarcasm.

3. France is considered Western, but they have such a big colonial Muslim population they have banned the hijab in state schools. Albeit one of the earliest democracies and yet landing themselves with a different form of gender discrimination. They are approaching it in a typically French way, by making a 'revolutionary' law.

4. Canada has awesome socialised policies. Australia has similar. USA has nix. So if we're on a general/Western tangent I did try to address the US problem above (the 'worlds biggest economy'), irrespective of where you're from. My bad, I should have used the term NORTH American to refer to the continent.

5. The sins of the fathers will be upon their children unto the third and fourth generation
Of course it is still going on. There is no truce, white flag. Putting equality into law takes time and precedent. I'm not devout, but it's a 2,000 year old quote that still holds some truth. My grandmother was valedictorian and the university medallist in Geology; she was my grandfather's tutor. Of course as soon as they got married, she was expected to stay home, have 4 kids, discipline them [he refused to himself but often instructed who to belt] and write cookbooks. He went on to be a Professor with amazing documented projects. All I have of Grand-mama are some scrawled recipes and a medal. What we DO have here is the result of their parenting: their children were divided the same: the boys were all encouraged to do Sci/Eng degrees, the girls Arts & Sciences. My father would happily stew in last year's bedsheets eating crap believing all women can be unnecessary dragon disciplinarians. My mother did 80 hour weeks + housework. I learned my life skills by sheer necessity or suffer anemia/starvation as a way of making up the imbalance of my parents unequal gender roles. My highschool considered itself to have a 'home science' emphasis for girls in 1990, but not in 1996. These inequalities are all still possible in a cosy 'CURRENT' Western socialised society and it also explains your observations of gender imbalance while you were at university. Thus whatever gender bias was held 2 generations ago, it still affects us. It will take your efforts and your children's generation to finally see the more equal result. You most definitely *should* be looking at the history.

6. Lastly for US voting statistics, my references to male incumbents making it difficult for new female candidates to run were provided, but I did say above I couldn't find the stats that show increased % of female voters in districts where female representatives are already in office. You can find the stats in mainstream textbooks like this.

So you forgot to define your terms;
I chucked in France as a good example of how historically unequal ('3rd world' non Western) gender roles of Islamic still affect a modern/Western nation;
The US still doesn't have any kind of maternity/paternity leave despite being the world's largest economy;
Non western countries like my India and China examples have much bigger populations than US/Canada and their cultural gender inequalities still manifest;
Voting stats proof I can't fix;
and generational influence / history are still relevant in the countries you later specified, but you insist you want to focus only on the present

Women Skittle's simple point still holds:
"Women are constantly being underestimated and undermined and therefore they underestimate themselves and there fellow females. It seems to me to be an endless cycle. And all we can do is choose not to follow the pattern ourselves."

Without examining history and precedent, it is all too easy slip back into to letting physical strength, breeding and comfortable 'current state' assumptions determine what women "want".

I had margaritas for beer.
3105 [save my place] [reply]
#45450
3062 posts
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the_bob 2010-07-28T11:03:23
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to what in message #3105:
3. France is considered Western, but they have such a big colonial Muslim population they have banned the hijab in state schools. Albeit one of the earliest democracies and yet landing themselves with a different form of gender discrimination. They are approaching it in a typically French way, by making a 'revolutionary' law.

I am of mixed feelings on this. Have they also banned the Kirpan? Turban? Crosses? Pentacles? Kippah(Jewish beanies)? It is bordering more of religious intolerance rather than gender discrimination. It discriminating against Islamic women rather than women who are Islamic.

I don't like it on the aspect that it is discriminating against religious practises.

I appreciate the fact that the Hijab is worn for the sake of modesty. From the Islamic women that I have talked to, it seems more of a choice than a requirement. Some wear it, some don't.

4. Canada has awesome socialised policies. Australia has similar. USA has nix. So if we're on a general/Western tangent I did try to address the US problem above (the 'worlds biggest economy'), irrespective of where you're from. My bad, I should have used the term NORTH American to refer to the continent.

Well the USA is backwards in many aspect. They are a conservative nation that is regressing in the new global society but likes to portray itself as the most progressive. Not so much. Not saying that we're much better but at least we're a little more honest with what we are.

5. The sins of the fathers will be upon their children unto the third and fourth generation
Of course it is still going on. There is no truce, white flag. Putting equality into law takes time and precedent. I'm not devout, but it's a 2,000 year old quote that still holds some truth. (Snipped). What we DO have here is the result of their parenting: their children were divided the same: the boys were all encouraged to do Sci/Eng degrees, the girls Arts & Sciences. My highschool considered itself to have a 'home science' emphasis for girls in 1990, but not in 1996. These inequalities are all still possible in a cosy 'CURRENT' Western socialised society and it also explains your observations of gender imbalance while you were at university. Thus whatever gender bias was held 2 generations ago, it still affects us. It will take your efforts and your children's generation to finally see the more equal result. You most definitely *should* be looking at the history.


My Mother was a farm girl and was good at science in school but didn't do anything other than reception/sectary/administration work after school. My father did menial work until he got a education and starting working with the university. My father lucked out as my mother treated him as her mother treated his father. Once we were old enough to all go to school she went back to work. She was still the main house keeper. That didn't stick to myself, my sister, or my brother. My brother does house work for himself. My sister does what she needs to but isn't enamoured with it. None of us will be the home maker my mother was, but we will be equal partners for it. The same things goes for my GF really, she has a passion for cooking interesting things. Things I would have never thought of. Cleaning wasn't her forte though. It pissed me off until I realized that I was trying to fall into the pattern that my Father had lived with. I was expecting her to do everything. What she tolerates as messy is far beyond what I tolerate. So instead of being pissed, I cleaned to what I expected. I found that I don't actually mind it.

I agree that it is our generation that will decide who will do what for future generations. The history is relevant insomuch that it shows what has happened and why it happened. I know amazing conclusion eh? Dwelling on the past though won't make things work any better, any quicker. It is hard not to see it when you're trying to re-engineer the system, but it will bog you down if you pay it too much mind.

It would seem that people should, ideally, work to their strengths. Due to the current state of teaching and what is being impressed upon us, we are being told our strengths instead of figuring them out?

Well the entire education system is almost on the verge of retirement so who knows what will happen.

Bob
--
Practitioner of Percussive Technical Support.
3106 [save my place] [reply]
#14182
1663 posts
12 points
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what 2010-07-28T17:31:14
subject: re: Question on the state of the war...
in reply to the_bob in message #3106:
I'll keep this simple.

"My Mother was a farm girl and was good at science in school but didn't do anything other than reception/sectary/administration work after school."

This is exactly my point: Did she want to only work in administration? What did her parents, educators and her society expect her to want, or expect of her?

How can you extract an individual's subjectivity from their time and location to say they objectively choose to want less?

I had margaritas for beer.
3107 [save my place] [reply]

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